Why the UNC-Wake Forest Non-ACC Game Means the End of the FBS is Upon Us

By Amy Daughters -

The recent announcement that North Carolina and Wake Forest will play a non-conference home-and-home series in 2019 and 2021 is more than an oddity that calls into question ACC scheduling practices.

It is a step towards the era of a super-division in college football.

Think about it this way, if two power-conference teams from the same league can play each other and call it a “non-conference” game, what’s the use of having an FBS with 10 leagues?

Since it’s a sure thing that teams from the American, C-USA, MAC, Mountain West and Sun Belt won’t ever play in the CFB Playoff, the real upside of retaining a tie with the Power-Fives is to create non-league scheduling opportunities.

But, if Power-Five programs can fill their non-league schedules with teams from their own conference, why continue pretending like the FBS is 128 teams all playing for the same prize?

Is it any coincidence that the first-ever, Power-Five non-conference game between two teams from the same league is slated between North Carolina—a team that has been to a bowl game five of the last six years—and Wake Forest, a program that has been to one postseason game in the same time frame?

Sure, the Tar Heels and Demon Deacons have been playing each other since 1888, and met almost consecutively until 2007, but is this really about protecting a rivalry?

While they are long-time, in-state opponents, the upside for North Carolina is its 68-35-2 all-time advantage over Wake.

It’s like allowing USC to schedule Washington State as a non-Pac-12 game. The Trojans have beaten the Cougars nine of the last ten times and are 58-9-4 all-time vs. Washington State.

On the flip side, would Florida State schedule Virginia Tech as a non-ACC opponent? Or would Nebraska ring up Michigan State for a non-Big Ten date?

What will likely precede a super-division is the era of the super-conference, when the five present Power-Fives meld into four bigger conferences with multiple divisions.

This may start with the Big 12, the now validated fifth wheel in a four-team Playoff bracket, being sold off, piece-by-piece, to the highest bidder from the four remaining power conferences.

Again, the concept of a super-conference is easier to sell if members can play each other and call it a “non-conference” game. This will be especially true at the beginning, when teams need to fulfill the quota of one Power-Five, non-conference game each season.

If there are only three other power conferences, the pickings get quite slim, and programs like Kansas, Indiana and Kentucky will have their dance cards filled out for years to come.

So, why not call up one of the weaker links in your own conference, especially one from another division that is rarely played because of the scheduling challenges inherent to a league with 16-plus members?

Regardless of how ridiculous it sounds, it would be counted as a Power-Five, non-conference game.

It’s why the North Carolina-Wake Forest non-ACC is game is so important: It sets the precedent for the technique and it validates the practice.

Eventually the era of the super-conference, along with the growing call for paying the full cost of attendance, will highlight the dividing line between the haves and the have-nots in the FBS. Not only are the 128 teams not playing for the same championship, they can’t afford to play by the same rules.

This leads to the split of the FBS: The super conferences break away and form Division IV and what’s left of the American, C-USA, MAC, Mountain West and Sun Belt stay in the new-look Division I-A (FBS) and begin playing for their own true title.

The new world of Division IV includes a scheduling requirement that dictates that each team can play only one non-conference game (that counts) against a lower-level program. This gets filled by a Division I-A (new-look FBS) team and means the end of the Power-Five-FCS matchups.

Again, the result is the same: The remainder of the non-league slate (which has been slashed by cutting league membership in half) has to be filled with something.

And since UNC-Wake Forest established the practice of scheduling fellow-league members as non-conference opponents—Voilà! It’s done, just fill the open slots with teams from your own conference.

Though the Tar Heels-Demon Deacons, non-ACC series may not do anything more than raise a few eye brows in 2015, by 2025 it may have been a significant underlying factor in the new-look of major college football.

  1. Darrell
    February 3, 2015 at 1:30 pm

    I lost all respect for these two schools when they announced this. Call it what it is Lazy Scheduling. I get the large crowd playing an in-state team will bring but UNC-Charlotte, E. Carolina or App St would bring that. What I can’t believe is that the ACC would like this since it guarantees a non-conference loss for one of those two teams making it just a little harder to place as many teams a possible in a bowl.

    • Jeff
      February 3, 2015 at 2:22 pm

      North carolina needs its cupcakes, and ECU keeps beating them, so its a new way of getting a cupcake

  2. DeaconRacer
    February 3, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    There is nothing lazy about scheduling this…it’s an old-time rivalry that will draw for both schools. There is nobody at either of these schools that gets up to play UNC-Charlotte or East Carolina in anything (also note Wake has App State on the books in the next few years, including a trip to Boone). The ACC screwed up royally when they first expanded by not having the NC Big Four play each other every year. Until a nine-game conference schedule becomes a reality, if this is what it takes for rivalries to be preserved, keep it coming.

    • schoup
      February 3, 2015 at 3:04 pm

      Yes, it is lazy. It’s also stupid. If they were so concerned about rivalries why did they all vote to keep the asinine 6-1-1 format with 14 teams, A format that guarantees you play 6 of the 13 teams in your conf just twice in 12 years. They kept the 6-1-1 b/c they don’t want to play each other more as most of the conf doesn’t want to see FSU and the other top teams amy more than they have too b/c they lose. They don’t want another conf game though 3 other P5’s play 9 conf games come 2016 b/c they want to have more spots to schedule cream puffs. The ACC and the SEC, the 2 conferences who will continue to play 8 games in 6-1-1 format with 14 teams also are the 2 conferences who play the most FCS schools. Both play 14 FCS schools a year..meaning every team plays one. No other P5 has 100% of their team playing a FCS yearly. The B10 will have less than 1/2 playing FCS schools and then the next year It’s like 3 teams and then they phase them out.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 3, 2015 at 7:15 pm

      Schoup, ur same old comments sure do get old. At least you didn’t say cupcake this time. Who are you by the way? Why do you think you know so much more than everyone? Believe it or not teams like Wake don’t have more of a say about playing nine confernce games than schools like FSU, Clemson, VT, GT and so on. How is it lazy or stupid? All you do is complain about the ACC and especially the SEC, then they add a P5 and you talk sh*t. As you can see by the ACCs scheduling, they are aware of how they are portrayed and are doing everything they can to fix it, especially the way this last season went down. As can be seen by adding this game to the schedule. If things are preventing them from moving to 9 confernce games maybe these are the steps they are taking to maneuver around it. To prove they want more repsect and want to play the best. Pretty good match-up if you ask me. I would prefer to see them play someone from another conference but this is a start. You speak like the other confernces don’t play down teams. And again it is good for college football to play a smaller school or two a year for many reasons I’ve stated repeatedly but if you’ve forgotten I can give them to you again. We don’t want this to be the NFL. We want, or some want the sport to grow not shrink. I don’t want to watch the same 10 tens play in the playoff every year. All confernces should play the same amount of conference games and some should schedule better non confernce games as well. But that goes for teams from all confernces. With the two schools Clemson continues to play from OOC and the ones they will be adding, they can play one or two FCS schools a year and will still have a very difficult schedule. Go tigers baby. And quit speaking for the entire ACC and SEC, check out some other conferences OOC scheduling. A joke as why Baylor got left out. Haha

    • schoup
      February 4, 2015 at 3:30 pm

      @Patrick Ryan

      Sorry the same “old facts hurt.” It is utterly asinine to have 14 teams with 8 conf games in 6-1-1 format. If you hate the facts than explain why they are wrong. You can’t b/c what the ACC and SEC are doing is stupid.

      It is pure laziness to schedule a conf member as an OOC. There are plenty of P5’s they could schedule years out. Most of the ACC has no P5’s in the years they are playing each other. Did they call any of them? How about the B10 or the other P5’s. The only reason to schedule a game like this is b/c of cancellation of a game thus there is no time to find or spots available by other P5’s to play. Doing it 5+ years is laziness and cowardly.

      Btw, if they wanted to change their perception it’s very easy. Reduce the number FCS schools, they play 14/yr, go to 9 game conf schedule and play P5’s OOC. It’s not rocket science. Btw, there is no reason to play a FCS other than an easy win, it’s a wasted game, the stats shouldn’t even count. It’s like a MLB team playing their AA farm team and counting it as a win in MLB standings.

      Are you really that silly talking about watching the same 10 teams play. You do realize that in their current stupid 6-1-1 format they play the same 7 teams of 8 conf game every year. a 9 game 6-3 format would actually provide more variety to their schedule. That’s clearly lost on you.

    • Lyn
      February 5, 2015 at 11:56 am

      Sorry – I don’t buy that this game is a draw for these two schools…I was at the last one…the stadium only holds 31,500 & it was no where near full…Wake is also only located about 100 miles from UNC, so distance isn’t a factor…As a long-time ACC fan, I personally hated the last expansion…I want to see the teams play each other…I think they should go to a format where they play every team every other year

    • Travis B
      February 9, 2015 at 10:49 pm

      Schoup is completely right. He summed it up quite nicely…

  3. Tim
    February 3, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    Decent points here. Too many rivalries have been lost by conferences getting bigger. A move like this could be the first of many more…which is too bad. As a fan I’m more interested in unique non-con matchups than those that accomodate a former conference rivalry.

  4. schoup
    February 3, 2015 at 2:58 pm

    The author is chasing windmills. The UNC- Wake game is just a sign iof 2 lazy programs that don’t want to take the effort to schedule a real OOC. Also a sign of a stupid conference that is beholding to the utterly stupid idea of not going to 9 conf games with 14 teams. If these schools were really so concerned about rivalries they would be pressing for 9 games in 6-3 format instead of them all voting for the asinine 6-1-1 format with 14 teams which means you play 6 of the other 13 teams just twice in 12 years.

    • Michael in Raleigh
      February 3, 2015 at 4:07 pm

      Even if the ACC ever goes to 9 games, there’s still going to be permanent crossover opponents. Miami HAS to play FSU every year; the rivalry predates both schools’ ACC years. NC State HAS to play UNC. Clemson-Georgia Tech, Duke-Wake, and Syracuse-Pitt aren’t quite is indispensable, but they’re still priorities for each school. So there would be a 6-1-2 format, not a 6-3 format as the Big Ten does it.

    • schoup
      February 3, 2015 at 5:41 pm

      You realign the divisions to keep those games. That’s what the B10 did when they went to 12 years ago and now with 14. They kept their most important rivalries OSU/UM and UM/MSU etc..by divisions. 6-3 format is the way to go for 14 teams. It allows you to play everyone more and reduces the disparity in permanent crossovers. There is a big difference between having your permanent cross over FSU and everyone else.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 3, 2015 at 7:59 pm

      Schoup Arizona and BYU reschedule a neutral site game. Haha don’t you always talk sh*t about SEC being the only ones to do that. You probably only comment on the articles that favor you or the ones that allow you to hate on the two conferences that get the most players drafted. Maybe the NFL has it wrong and aren’t drafting the right players from the toughest conferences. Lol

    • Drew
      February 4, 2015 at 10:52 am

      ACC really needs to fix the divisions, that’s the root cause of all the problems. It’s like whack-a-mole. The divisional setup precludes rivalries, so they add the crossover, which creates schedules with 7 of 8 games pre-ordained and reduces appearances against teams in the other division, so they add an OOC game with a conference team. If they just set up sensical divisions, that value geography, history, and traditional rivalries, that eliminates most of the crossovers, which means more appearances against teams from the other division.

      Atlantic- BC, Louisville, Miami, Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia, Virginia Tech
      Coastal – Clemson, Duke, FSU, Georgia Tech, NC State, UNC, Wake

      Only two crossovers are necessary, FSU/Miami, UNC/UVa. Every other rivalry is built in.

    • Michael in Raleigh
      February 4, 2015 at 3:20 pm


      UVA would throw a fit over that alignment. They’ve been in the league for 61 of the league’s 62 years, and they’re going to get stuck with all the ex-Big East schools while the rest of the original ACC plus FSU and GT are in the opposite division? Also, the ex-Big East schools prefer to play the longtime ACC schools more often than this alignment would allow. Va. Tech pined away to join the ACC for 50 years. Do you think they’d be happy just being in a division that puts them right back in the old Big East (minus Rutgers, Temple, & WVU, plus UVA & L’ville)?

      There is no simple solution that doesn’t totally screw over a few schools. Let’s stop pretending that there is one.

    • schoup
      February 4, 2015 at 3:46 pm

      @Patrick Ryan

      How butt hurt you to be so concerned about BYU and AZ a 3 game series.to a home and home and neutral site chosen by BYU b/c it’s was suppose to be their home game. instead of 2 home AZ and 1 home BYU? Dude I’m living rent free in your tiny mind!

      Btw, the game was changed b/c BYU scheduled Mich St. on the 2020 date they were going to play AZ at home, now thye play MSU at home. The game was changed b/c BYU needed it changed and AZ helped them out. BYU has a good realationship with P12 schools by playing many of them regularly. Btw, for good measure AZ and BYU added 2 more games home and home on the back end 2026/27.

  5. Richard
    February 3, 2015 at 3:25 pm

    Um, B10 teams have scheduled each other OOC in the past.

    • PeteF3
      February 3, 2015 at 5:03 pm

      I’m not doubting you, but when was this? You’re not thinking of the few years in the early ’80s when they went to a 9-game round-robin, or OSU playing Penn State in the ’70s, are you?

  6. Josh
    February 3, 2015 at 3:26 pm

    As someone who grew up in the state of NC, I see a different side of the argument.

    Amy points out the overall record, but the record is much tighter the last three decades. WFU holds the edge actually.

    When the ACC expanded, it brought to an end the annual rivalry games from within the conference. WFU and UNC were put into different divisions and play once every 7 years. For these fan bases who go to school and work with each other, it’s absurd. Not “lazy-scheduling.”

    Breaking up the Big Four is killing tradition in the state of NC – in both football and basketball.

    Playing App State or ECU isn’t the same – there’s nothing to those games for either school.

    Teams in the Big Four have history and memories of playing each other. It’s different if you didn’t grow up here.

    I believe the scheduling of these two schools as an OOC game would have happened even if it didn’t count as the 1 annual P5 game for the ACC. It means that much.

    For the record, I would be in favor of a 9 game schedule if we can play UNC more often.

    • Greg Barnes
      February 3, 2015 at 4:25 pm

      If UNC can schedule two FCS schools in 2015, then don’t try to tell me there’s nothing in it for them to play ECU. There’s nothing in it for them to play Eastern Michigan, but the Tarheels scheduled that game in 2017.

      I don’t think this game is the end-all of the FBS, and I don’t oppose the UNC-Wake game. But don’t try to make us believe that UNC doesn’t care about the ECU game.

    • Michael
      February 3, 2015 at 7:36 pm

      Yeah there’s nothing for unc cheaters to play for didn’t ECU score 70 on them this year and 55 last year in embarrassing losses?

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 3, 2015 at 7:52 pm

      Personally I think they are two pretty equal programs. ECU vs UNC is a quality match-up of equally matched teams. They may feel there is no reason to play b/c UNC gets no credit for beating them and gets bashed if they lose. So why would they play again? It was beyond embarrassing to give up 70 no matter who you play. And from what I have watched not seen on the stats UNC hasn’t played any defense for quite a few years. Again why do you guys think they are instantly going to stop playing FCS schools. I personally hope they play continue to play one a year for a long time. It’s good for football for many reasons.

    • Jim
      February 5, 2015 at 4:24 pm

      Would never call Wake forest and UNC Power 5 teams. Would call them Resource 5 teams that are not Powerful. No reason these teams shouldn’t schedule East Carolina on a regular basis. FBS teams shouldn’t be allowed to schedule FCS teams period! SEC take note.

    • Dave
      February 9, 2015 at 1:16 am

      Not to disagree with your wider point but the restarting of the Wake-App State series is a big deal to Wake. The two schools have played 25+ times since 1970 when App moved to DI from the NAIA. Throughout much of the 80s, it was often the first game on the schedule and always a big draw for Wake – routinely one of their only sellouts each year. Since the series was cancelled around 2000 because Wake was tired of losing to a I-AA program, Wake fans have been calling for it to be restarted, but only if App moved to FBS. They wanted to restart it so bad they even consented to App’s demand to come to Boone for the first time in ther series’s history and to do so before App would go back to Winston. That the first game is in Boone shows Wake wanted the series and App held all the cards.

  7. Michael in Raleigh
    February 3, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    Do you have a “Jump to Conclusions” mat at your doorstep?

  8. Mark
    February 3, 2015 at 6:01 pm

    So when the power 5 break away, will they get their own basketball tournament? If I was a group or 5 conference I would not schedule the power 5 schools or want them in my tournament. Some of the best basketball schools and group of 5 or FCS teams in football, so P5 would lose out on basketball (and every other sport) by breaking away. Basically they’d become minor league football and ask the AFL, XFL, and USFL how much people like minor league football. The reason college football is so much better than the NFL is because of the tradition and they’re killing it.

    • bradleysmith1212
      February 3, 2015 at 6:55 pm

      I agree that the power suits are killing the tradition of college football for money. However, in the case of UNC-Wake, they are trying to preserve tradition – the UNC-Wake rivalry. In fact, they are willing to concede a net loss in the teams’ records to preserve this tradition. (only one team can win, whereas, both teams could win if they each scheduled OOC cupcakes instead).

      IMO, the UNC-Wake deal is more of an anomaly. Until I see teams like Florida and Arkansas or Washington and Arizona or Illinois and Maryland schedule an OOC game, I’m not buying it.

      The dumb part of the UNC-Wake deal is = why does it have to be OOC? Can’t the conference just count it as a 9th conference game for both UNC and Wake? Seems like a can of worms if UNC or Wake loses “OOC” and that helps them win their division….

    • GamerTeeTom (SEC)
      February 4, 2015 at 1:39 pm

      The power 5 is only in football. FCS and FBS are all the same, as Division I, in basketball. I doubt colleges can become minor leagues of pro sports, since minor leagues are based on cities and not schools or colleges.

      Now, if you saying what if the Power 5 break away from the FBS, that would be an interesting topic. The P5 and G5 break away, and become the FBS and FAS (wild guess), then the rules of scheduling, and possibly post-season games, would be a lot different. The P5-subdivision would had to schedule P5 teams in place of G5 teams, and G5 teams in place of FCS teams. The G5-subdivision wouldn’t change when it comes to scheduling. The bowl games would probably ALL go to the P5-subdivision; leaving the G5-subdivision with a playoff system of their own. The G5-subdivision would probably use their (G5 only) bowl games as the games for their playoff system. Also, not sure what would happen to the bowl games that matchup, P5 .vs. G5. I guess those “mixed” bowls would have a decision to make as well.

      Very interesting scenario!

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 4, 2015 at 1:55 pm

      Beyond a stupid idea. No comment.

  9. Michael
    February 3, 2015 at 7:27 pm

    The North Carolina generally assembly has already warned the ACC state-supported schools that if they do not play all Division I opponents in North Carolina regularly they will force with a bang of the gavel them to play as they mandate!

    • Michael in Raleigh
      February 4, 2015 at 3:11 pm

      That’s news to me, and I live five miles from the state legislature.

    • schoup
      February 5, 2015 at 1:22 pm


      The NC general assembly has no control over Wake Forest and Duke.as they are private schools. UNC and NC State the 2 schools they have control over as public universities already play annually as a permanent cross division opponent. So what are they crying about UNC and NCST already play.

    • Michael
      February 5, 2015 at 6:23 pm

      Michael in Raleigh then you have not been following NC football long because the legislature was ready to step in and threatened to make UNC, NCSU, and ECU play annually (ie Fla and Fla state). The time frame was in the late 90s when Baddour, Robinson, and Hamrick were all ADs at the Universities. That is when they all started theirs series with ECU. Economic Development and NC $ flowing into the local communities!

  10. Jorge Brooks (@therealpanama)
    February 4, 2015 at 7:28 am

    Slightly overstating the case. They are 77 miles apart. Nothing else. I doubt UNC would have scheduled this same game with Boston College.

  11. mrvandy212
    February 4, 2015 at 10:31 am

    I actually give the ACC credit on this one. They respect rivalries and history. They, along with the SEC, let some of their teams play out-of-conference in-state rivals on the last weekend of the season. Would the Big Ten allow Penn State to play Pitt on the last weekend? Would the Big 12 allow TCU to play SMU the last weekend (or Texas to play Texas A&M that weekend were the rivalry ever to get renewed)?

    Also, for those of you who give the SEC and ACC a lot of flack about the 9-game schedule, I completely agree when it comes to the SEC, however, I somewhat sympathize with the ACC because of the “Notre Dame” requirement.

    As for the Carolina schools, they really should be in the same division. I think it would be wise to realign the divisions in the ACC to North and South at this point. People still don’t remember whose in the Coastal and who’s in the Atlantic!

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 4, 2015 at 10:40 am

      Very true, agreed.

    • schoup
      February 5, 2015 at 1:37 pm


      Credit? LOL. They are avoiding scheduling a real OOC vs another P5 conference. If they were so concerned about playing each other as UNC and Wake claim then its funny that the vote was unanimous to not to go to 9 games, That would have allowed them to play each other much more than the twice in 12 years they do now in 6-1-1 format. They could have done a 6-1-2 guarantees 4 times in 12 years or 6-3 guarantees minimum 5 times.

      Allow teams to play on the last weekend? That’s alot of jingoism that somehow playing other than the last weekend is better. The simple fact is these games disrupt conference races.

      The ACC ND play deal was a convenient tool to avoid 9 games. Of course ND loves it as most years they are under little to no threat to lose to ACC schools beyond FSU and Clemson.

      The Carolina schools don’t have to be in the same division, just like all the Cali schools aren’t in the same division in the P12. Of course the P12 uses a 5-4 format and the cali schools all play each other yearly. The ACC could do the same thing if they are so concerned about Nc schools playing yearly.

  12. Patrick Ryan
    February 4, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    Schoup how about ACC and SEC. Top three recruiting classes. Clemson is gearing up for a national title run. Alabama FSU and Clemson. Go tigers baby.

    • schoup
      February 4, 2015 at 4:16 pm

      Clemson is gearing up again to be overrated and lose to when they play a top team. Clemson is historical overrated team that crumbles. Get ready for it again. They couldn’t even beat FSU without Winston…LOL.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 4, 2015 at 7:49 pm

      Schoup you are definitely right about Clemson choking against FSU. We choked and had five separate opportunities to win the game and lost. One thing that separates Clemson from other great programs is that we have coaches that actually care about its student athletes. We gave a senior a chance and when he failed we pulled him. It’s all about winning but not at all costs. Clemson has great, true, loyal coaches that actually care about their players. Just another reason the great players will continue choosing Clemson over other great programs because they know they coaches truly care. We all know you want this to be like the NFL but it isn’t.

      We had five separate opportunities to win and lost and that will do nothing but make us better in the future. How’d you come up that we are overrated and lose all big games? You are obviously clueless or just trolling. Unless you win the national title every year and go undefeated you are going to lose. I’m fine witha few loses to tough teams. Just shows the parity of college football, you win some you lose some. Clemson has beaten in its last three bowls LSU, Ohio St.- who had won like 24 in a row I believe. Check that one out stat man. Cause all this comes from my head, the stuff you take time to look up. We also beat Oklahoma, a team much better than their record suggests but we know thats all you pay attention to. All three of those coaches have national titles. And trust me I would have loved to have played a higher ranked team than Oklahoma. It’s just one way to try and make Clemson and the ACC look not as good. Oklahoma was by far the strongest unranked team and yet Clemson dominated evey aspect of that game, from start to finish, including the nations beat running attack. And we still don’t get the respect we have earned.

      Just got the third best recruiting class behind FSU and Alabama, two programs we know you are fond of. Haha How many SEC teams were ranked in top ten? Five. Bet you love that. And who just committed to Clemson for 2016? The nations #1 running back. We have the #1 offensive line class for 2015 and are now starting to sign the top running backs. We have always had good Qbs, receivers and d-line but now we’re are signing the best line man and running backs. Great day to be a tiger baby. Who’s your team? Let me guess Oregon. Again it’s gonna be a whole for a PAC12 title, USC mag stand a chance but we all know how they don’t at defense on the west coast so scratch that one.

    • schoup
      February 5, 2015 at 10:46 am

      Here’s a hint why Clemson loses big games..they are 13-34 vs Auburn,,they are 8-20 vs FSU, they are 3-7 in the last 10 vs south carolina..they only beat SC when they are on a down year in recen history. Clemson is the definition of a paper tiger.

  13. Frank
    February 4, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    Another controversial headline to generate hits.

    1. The NCAA Division I Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) (formerly I-AA) exists independent of the NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) (formerly Division I-A), no matter if Power 5 FBS programs choose to cease playing FCS programs or not.

    So the END of the FBS is not upon us. Whomever authored the headline appears to not understand the basics of how NCAA football is organized.

    With that said…

    2, It is difficult for athletic directors and conference management with the assistance of computer apps, to put together a 12 game schedule.

    Many of the 65 P5 programs want to play SEVEN home games per season. And do not want to play more than one non-conference road game out of the region. Some refuse to play any game out of the region. Then add in the non-conference rivalries to the schedule, and specific date preferences for rivalry games. And top P5 programs don’t wish to play bottom P5 programs.

    The inflexibility makes it difficult to generate a schedule which keeps most everyone happy.

    There are not enough Group of Five (G5) programs with schedule openings to serve the needs of the P5 programs. And most P5 programs do not want to schedule home-and-homes with G5 programs (and almost never with FCS programs). And thus, to attain a seven game home schedule P5 programs have to pay large guarantees to attract G5 programs for a single home game. A few P5 programs can afford paying out multiple large guarantees per season, but many cannot or will not.

    The option to schedule a ‘cheaper’ guarantee game with a FCS program from the region gives P5 programs additional flexibility to fill their schedule.

    Needless to repeat, the ACC and SEC would do much to solve their scheduling issues by going to a 9-game conference schedule.

    • schoup
      February 4, 2015 at 4:11 pm


      P5’s are scheduling more and more away game with G5’s. Look at the B10 for example
      BYU x3(MSU, Neb, WI) 3 of their top programs, USF x2 , UConn x2, NIU, Cincy x2, UCF, Bowling Green, Eastern MI, Western MI, Temple x3, CSU, Marshall. Nevada.

      The B10 is doing it b/c they are phasing out FCS games. Also by doing it they cut out pay games which better mid majors want 1+ mil for. Some are doing pure home and homes and some are doing 2 for 1 which mid majors are happy to do if they can get a top program like WI, Neb, Mich st to come to their place.

  14. Lost in Va.
    February 4, 2015 at 3:02 pm

    Play 11 conf. games + one “rivalry” OOC game, if applicable.

  15. Dave
    February 5, 2015 at 2:32 am

    I think this is much ado about nothing. Here is why. Many of the Power 5 lower-tier schools need to play the non-power 5 conferences in non-conference play because they typically result in wins. Those wins many times would be the difference between a lower-tier Power 5 school getting enough wins for a bowl game or not. Getting to a bowl game many times is the difference between a coach being fired or not.

    Take for example schools like Indiana, Washington St., Syracuse, Duke, Vanderbilt, etc. No way those schools ever wins 6 conference games. They need the week non-conference schedule to have a chance at a bowl.

    So this UNC/WFU game will be a one-off. Not the norm.

  16. Bilbo
    February 5, 2015 at 1:28 pm

    The SEC schedules far fewer road games and home and homes with G5 programs than any other P5 Conference. And when the SEC schedules home-and-homes, most of them are with CUSA/Sun Belt programs versus mid-majors (AAC/MWC/BYU),

    SEC current and future home-and-homes with G5:

    Missi-Memp (x2); Mizzo-UConn; Mizzo-Wyo; Mizzo-Memph; Vand-Hou;

    MissSt-SoAla; MissSt-SoMiss; Miss St-LT; Vand-MTS(x2); Vand-WKy; Vand-NIU; Mizzo-Toledo; Mizzo-Ark St; TexA&M-Rice.

    The point is if the SEC doesn’t schedule even close to an equivalent number of road games or home-and-homes with stronger G5’s, as other P5 conferences do.

    That is a significant advantage over the other P5 conference programs.

    So to recommend other conferences drop from scheduling FCS games, while the SEC continues to schedule as it does is just silly.

    Again, the SEC and ACC could level the playing field, and at the same time make scheduling much easier on themselves, if they both went to a 9-game conference schedule. Eventually they will come to their senses.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 5, 2015 at 2:04 pm

      It doesn’t matter. OMG Will someone else please continue repeating who the SEC plays in their OOC games. Man that gets old. It’s only fair that they do it, it balances it out because they are the strongest conference. Week to week the matchups in the SEC are superior to evey other conference, from top to bottom. The strongest best football is played in the SEC no matter who they play OOC. So because of that you guys can continue to be wrong and believe what you want to believe. And again why don’t someone else come tell me what their bowl record was, because we know that’s all some people look at. Go tigers baby. Clemson

    • day
      February 5, 2015 at 2:46 pm

      @Patrick: Don’t you see the trend here, it is ok when other conferences play weaker OOC’s but the when the ACC or SEC does it, it is a crime. People love pointing out how the ACC or SEC need to go to a 9 game schedule or how they need to stop playing (as they call them) cupcakes, cream puff & blind schools but then their team or conference plays a weaker team, then they go by percentages on how their conference does not do it as much. It is a waste of time to even argue the fact that all conferences do the same darn thing but in a different ways.
      Even if the ACC or SEC went to 9 game conference there would be someone out there complaining about something else. Congras on Clemson’s recruiting year.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 5, 2015 at 3:45 pm

      Thanks, every once in a while you need a little positive reinforcement of you know what I mean. Totally agree with everything you said. I just get bored at work, love college football and being on the west coast when I’m originally from the east, it’s hard to find anyone to talk college football with. I don’t mind wasting a little time trying to open up some eyes. But frustrating when you are talking to someone with their mind already set in stone. You have a team?

    • John Thomas
      February 5, 2015 at 6:36 pm

      @ Patrick, it’s not fair that they do it. Week to week match ups in the SEC are not superior to every conference and they prove that annually, this year was proof of that, and if it wasn’t for the BCS, it would have been exposed previously. Every conference has weak teams and the SEC is no exception. No matter how many people think that conference is a battle to go through, all the evidence says no. Georgia just a few years ago went 10-2 and didn’t beat a single team with a .500 or better record all season. Missouri has gone to the SEC title game 2 years in a row and only beat 2 teams that finished in the top 25 along the way, including a loss to the worst team in the Big 10. In most years Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, Miss. State, Arkansas, and recently Tennessee are not going to go to the ACC, the Big 12, Pac 12, or Big 10 and suddenly become 8 to 10 win teams.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 5, 2015 at 8:28 pm

      The first thing I won’t do is go and say what kind of record they will or won’t have. What kind of recruiting class did Tenn have? You do know that when all these teams play there can only be so many with winning records. Someone has to be on the losing side or not have a winning record. That’s how it works. And don’t be one of those people who thinks because Alabama got beat that the SEC would have lost in the previous National Title games. Come on, that’s your argument. You can take that one back, it’s not to late. Go ahead and reread what you just wrote. You named the bottom half of the SEC- Arkansas, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Tennessee. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Those bottom teams are better than most other conferences bottom teams. And that’s me being generous. The SECs down teams this year dominated in their bowls. Georgia crushed Louisville, Arkansas crushed Texas, A&M beat W Virginia, South Carolina beat Miami, Florida beat a decent East Carolina team, Missouri beat a pretty good Minnesota team, A good Miss St team got beat by an even better GT team, Auburn lost in OT, Alabama lost to the hottest team in the nation on one play the pick six-game over and last TCU crushed Ole Miss. Don’t care what the bowl records are, you compare the conferences realistically and get back to me. The PAC12 got generous bowls when the SEC didn’t. And those are the results. SEC is the best plain and simple lets talk about who is second best.

    • John Thomas
      February 5, 2015 at 11:39 pm

      Recruiting? How cares how good Tennessee’s recruiting class is. It means nothing, don’t believe me? Ask Notre Dame how having a top 20 class every year since 2006 with most of those being in the top 10 has done for them.

      And please, don’t be one of these people that thinks that the SEC couldn’t have been beaten regardless of Alabama losing or not. It means that you didn’t watch the games. In 2008, do you really think Florida beats USC or Utah that year? Not saying that they couldn’t, but lets not act like it would be a foregone conclusion. In 2009 Alabama scored 2 TD in the final 6 minutes to beat a Colt McCoy-less Texas team. 2010 Auburn won on a last second FG and in 2011, regardless that Alabama won, they shouldn’t have been in the game with LSU to begin with. But having said that, that is the main reason why we have a playoff today.

      As far as the “down teams dominating”, uh Georgia is a down team? Texas A&M beating WVU without their starting QB is something to brag about? Arkansas I’ll give you. They were great down the stretch. Not sure anyone would have wanted to play them. But that’s a rarity in itself. Every once in a while a team with a not so great record isn’t as bad as they appear. Iowa was like that a few years ago going 7-5 and losing those 5 games by a total of 20 points.

      Favorable bowl matchups? Granted the Pac 12 did get to play all of their games in their own territory, but so did the SEC. Favorable opponents, well getting West Virginia without their starting QB was favorable, playing Notre Dame, a team that was kicked around by the ACC and the Pac 12 is supposed to be a favorable game. Getting hot and cold Iowa has a 50% of being favorable, as is getting East Carolina, who only beat 1 team with a better than .500 record.

      But in terms of comparing conferences realistically, that’s easy. Outside of TCU/Ole Miss and Auburn/Wisconsin, where was this great mismatch not in favor of the SEC? They were favored in every game but the TCU/Ole Miss game by a TD or more.

      Ultimately, bowl games are a poor measurement in most cases because some teams don’t care to be there, a style of offense or defense is rarely seen and becomes a poor matchup (much the case for the Big 12 and SEC as the Big 12 doesn’t see many power running teams and the SEC doesn’t see many passing teams) or because of how the games are slotted as you get the #3 team from one conference playing the #5 team from another either because of name/prestige or because they may bring a lot of people to the game. But what else do you have to go on really when 1 conference claims dominance yet plays less road games in non-conference play than any other conference, plays less Power 5 schools in non-conference play than any other conference, and plays more FCS opponents than any other conference.

    • schoup
      February 6, 2015 at 6:42 pm

      @Patrick Ryan

      You prove with each posy just how much of an ignorant Sisters Equals Cousin dolt your are. The SEC are cowards that play the least P5’s OOC, it;s not even close and they play the most FCS schools. You can’t refute the facts so you say like a dolt it doesn’t matter. The SEC is the most overrate conf year i nand year out and you ignorant rednecks suck up the hype. of course what else do SEC peple have to do, they are a collection of the poorest. states in the country, the dominate the bottom of every economic, health and social well being stat. Being obsessed with CFB is all they have to distract from the plight in their states.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 6, 2015 at 7:15 pm

      Soup why don’t you go see if John wants you to suck it soft, you are dead wrong in each area. For one I grew up a college football coaches son. I grew up on the practice field, in the meeting rooms, on the road with recruiting, on the sideline and in the press box during the games. Not to mention am fortunate to have great genes. I’m from the east coast bounced around all over being a college coaches son. I have currently lived in California for 13 years. I have watched both ACC/SEC games live as well as PAC12 games live. I have a pretty balanced unbias View of college football considering. And I am not even an SEC fan, just one of the few realistic fans. I am a Clemson and ACC fan. So you can go ahead and throw all that sh*t you said right away. I never said they didn’t play the fewest P5s OOC or the most FCS schools. Never once have I said that but for some reason that’s about all you have to say in almost every post you make. That doesn’t make them not as good because they don’t play nine conference games. In fact it has absolutely nothing to do with it. I study behavior, ABA, and we are laughing at the contingencies you are forming. And trust me there are poor people all over the world and some for reasons that are far beyond their immediate control. Believe it or not. Prolly think I’m a republican also. Haha You are blind In more areas than just college football. I wouldn’t expect you to see it that way tho. Bring it…

      Oh yeah you never answered any of my questions from the other posts? Are you going to? And who’s your team?

    • schoup
      February 7, 2015 at 10:57 am

      @Patrick Ryan

      Please save me the made up story. You are purely delusional in your views on the SEC, ACC, and Clemson. To claim objectivity is hilarious, you spout continuous Clemson nonsense and get P*ssy when you can’t back it up with facts. You do the same with the SEC as you have bought hook line and sinker the ESPN hype.

      Btw, there ate poor people everywhere just more in the south, it’s the product of political conservative ideology. If you want to know the product of conservatism it’s easy to see, 14 of the 15 poorest states are Repub conservative, 17 of the bottom 20. The states who receive the most fed dollars while paying the least taxes, receiver states are dominated by the same conservative states. The people always whining about govt spending are the ones getting the most by far and paying liitle b/c they are low income, low gdp, poor health, etc…states.The states that are donors to them 9 of the 10 biggest are “liberal states”..CA. NY. CT, IL, MA, NJ. etc…

      For the 100th time playing 8 game conf schedule with 14 teams is stupid, What part of that don’t you get. The only reason to do it is to try to game the system if you understand stats on how 8 games vs 9 games effects things. The SEC is are unequivocally cowards in scheduling, that’s why the don’t want to play 9 games, it’s why the play the least P5’s OOC, the least top level G5’s, and the most FCS schools. Please save the BS how tough the conf is, the SEC has plenty of bad teams. Miss, Miss st, KY, Ark, vandy are annually bad. The yhave 1 good year a decade and Miss st. and Miss had that thus year..of course they played absolutely nobody OOC so they inflated their records with 4 easy wins and were then exposed in the bowl games.

  17. Bilbo
    February 5, 2015 at 4:15 pm

    The SEC (and the ACC) were very close in there voting to go to a 9-game conference schedule. They will eventually get there.

    In the mean time top SEC power programs schedule far fewer home-and-homes with power programs outside of their region, and play far fewer road games overall. Instead, padding the schedule with multiple home games with cupcakes.

    Give respect to LSU and Tennessee as well as Ohio State, Texas, UCLA, Oregon, Stanford, USC, Michigan St, Nebraska, Wisconsin, TCU, Miami-Fl, and Virginia, and all who are willing to schedule home-and-homes with programs around the country.

    Much different for Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Texas A&M, and the two Missi’s, and [cough] Baylor.

    • Jim
      February 5, 2015 at 4:35 pm

      Agree Bilbo, this year we saw Bama get exposed too. SEC will really have to win the NC instead of having it given to them based on perception. Bama would have been the NC last year without the new playoff.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 5, 2015 at 6:30 pm

      Don’t agree one bit Bilbo or Jim. When you play in the toughest conference (SEC) you can get away with playing a few smaller programs. Alabama played West Virginia, a quality opponent or as close a quality opponent as there is for Alabama. Unless of course they want the season to begin like a playoff. I’d love to hear how you think Alabama got exposed? PLEASE EXPLAIN. How does losing two games a year the last two seasons mean you have been exposed? Don’t get me wrong it’s a let down for the Tide. How much do the haters hate that? Haha And for Georgia, they scheduled home & homes with Clemson. Weird how that’s not good enough, oh yeah they didn’t travel across the country. Who f*cking does? Florida plays FSU every year, who could they find to play that is better than that. Again you want them to travel across the country. Texas A&M just scheduled home & home against Clemson for 2018-19. Pretty legit if you ask me. I’ll give you a little credit for Miss States OOC however when you play LSU, Auburn, Texas AM, Arkansas, Missouri, Ole Miss and Alabama as well Kentucky that is beyond a difficult schedule. Much stronger than most teams in the PAC12, definitely a stronger schedule than every team in the BIG12 and stronger than most teams in the BIG10. Again we don’t want this to be the NFL where 15 programs compete for a national title. There is much more parity in college football, and more than just in the P5s than people want to believe. What’s funny is how we all should be talking about how sh*ty the bowl matchups are. That’s what is an entire joke. If we had better bowls this would all play itself out. Can anyone else see that?

  18. Rick Gilmore
    February 5, 2015 at 8:46 pm

    I find it funny that Wake Forest fans still want to use the “Big 4” term in North Carolina for football, that term was outdated by the mid 1970’s. Compare your stadium, attendance, fan base, and team to ECU and tell me how you consider yourself “Big” and ECU beneath you! Hide behind that ACC curtain all you want, everyone else knows who and what you are not. The Packman calls Wake Forest Switzerland because everyone is neutral in regards to them. Your 25K attendance games make you like who you really are, a school that got lucky in the 50’s. If not for that you would be a Davidson athletically today.

    • Dan Sullivan
      February 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm

      Is anyone, but maybe me, surprised that the Big 12 is/has not approached ECU & UCF to become the 11th & 12th teams in their league? After A&M left for the SEC, Texas has become a hunting ground for the Southeastern Conference recruiters. While Oklahoma & Texas have national brands that allows them to recruit anywhere in the country … this is not so for the majority of the teams in the League. Kansas, ISU, and OSU are heavily dependent on Texas talent and put simply, it is being dried up quicker than the oil. With ECU & UCF in the Big 12, their presence would create the a recruiting base in talent rich southeast! Further, West Virginia would then a couple of neighbors in their time zone! Finally, it would give Central Florida & East Carolina P5 Status, that their play of the field suggests they deserve! While I am not advocating this … I am surprised that I continue to hear about Boise & BYU as possible ways for the B-12 to expand and virtually nothing about expansion to the Southeast!

  19. Mazz
    February 5, 2015 at 10:37 pm

    Texas A&M dumped the home-and-home series with Oregon in order to play Clemson. Georgia cancelled a home-and-home with Oregon to play someone near by. Kansas St cancelled a home-and-home series with Oregon. Then turned around and scheduled the series with Auburn.

    I can count on few fingers the number of home-and-homes some top SEC programs are playing outside of their “comfort zone”.

    LSU and Tennessee play home-and-homes out of the region on a consistent basis.

    Whereas Ala-Geo-Fla-TAM-Ol Miss-Miss St won’t,

    The illusion is eroding.

  20. SniffMeTaint
    February 8, 2015 at 3:19 pm

    No one will notice that the UNC-Wake game will be an OOC game, because neither team will be playing for a Championship, and no one will care. The ACC needs to split the 2 divisions like this:


    NC State
    Wake Forest


    Virginia Tech
    Georgia Tech

    Rivalries would be in the same division, and there would not be any reason to have a “Permanent” Crossover game. Try to have a 9 games conference schedule, so teams in different divisions would not have to wait 6 years to play each other.

    • Evan
      February 10, 2015 at 1:23 pm

      Great idea. That ensures the NC schools will play each other every year. If you played 3 teams from the other division each year, it would only be 2 years before playing the same cross-div team. Even if it was a 6-2, then it would be only 3 yrs before plaing the same cross-div team, which is better than 6 yrs

  21. Kirk
    February 9, 2015 at 9:23 pm

    As a Penn State season ticket holder, give me back the WVU, Pitt, and old Big East game. Drop the 7th home game to make your budget. Double my ticket price for a Os, Mich, NB, WVU and Pitt. These 7 home and 5 away games are killing these out of conference back yard brawl type games. Make more money with double the ticket price for 1 game. No operational costs and a better chance to get more local home and home series. Also gives me 1 more weekend I don’t have to travel to a home game and saves my expenses. Make a 100 to 128 +/- team pool and a must play in that pool. 9 conference games and 3 out of conference

  22. Mark
    February 10, 2015 at 11:15 am

    Can’t say I blame the P5 schools for doing this but if I am G5/FCS program or 1AAA program my attitude is you are either all in our all out. If P5 programs will no longer play G5 or FCS programs in football then no NCAA Men/Women Hoop Tourney, Ice Hockey, Baseball or any other NCAA sports national championship competitions for any of their programs. They will have to set up their own tournaments for all other sports.

  23. Billy
    February 10, 2015 at 5:25 pm

    Okay, I really don’t see the big deal at all with North Carolina and Wake Forest playing this game as a non-conference game. Being that they need to fill four (4) non-conference game slots I think it makes sense, it’s a in-state local match-up that as well fills the need for P5 status. When it’s all said and done, all P5 schools will most likely always have two open slots on their non-conference schedule for G5 or FCS programs.

    Sorry Amy, but this is nothing about nothing.

    • Patrick Ryan
      February 10, 2015 at 7:39 pm

      Totally agree. Some people have gotten carried away with this one. But hey, I can’t complain we are talking about college football 200 days before the season starts. Go Clemson Tigers and the ACC. Great, smart move for the ACC. Once again they come through and try to play the best.

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